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Implications of Supporting Israel

Perspective on Jerusalem

This question is important not only for followers of Christ, but for people of all religions and points of view.

Ultimately, it is not just about God’s promise to Abraham that he would bless those who blessed him, and curse those who cursed him (Gen 12:3). It also raises the question of what the Apostle Paul is asking when he says, “If God is for us, who can be against us?” (Rom 8:31).

By the way, if you are just coming into this discussion, it might be helpful for you to check out the conversation and comments that followed the previous post regarding the Schalit Palestinian Prisoner Exchange.

But at this point let’s review a couple of the many biblical issues that make this such a significant matter, and why followers of Christ are among those divided regarding the support of Israel.

Bedouin Donkey

For example, according to the Jewish prophet, Joel, in the last days God will judge the nations of the earth who have joined together to destroy Israel (Joel 3:2). The prophet Zechariah was even clearer in describing how, in the end times, Israel will drive the nations of the world mad; that those nations will gather to destroy Jerusalem;  and that they in turn will be judged by God for hating the nation that bears his name (Zechariah 12:1-9).

In many ways this sounds like a fulfillment of what God said when he promised Abraham that he would bless those who blessed him and curse those who cursed him.

The result is that many have concluded in our day that it makes sense to align ourselves with Israel in the current international conflict– even before God opens the eyes of this nation regarding what their leaders once did in calling for the death of the Messiah (Zechariah 12:10-11).

So before going any further, that’s why I believe all of us need to take seriously not only the history of this issue, but also the personal and future implications.

The reason for not stopping at this point is that the God of Abraham did not stop here. He had more to say. The God of Abraham later spoke through Jeremiah saying that he had (at least in some ways and for some reasons) turned against Jerusalem (the city that bore his name and history). (Jeremiah 21:13). To that, the prophet Ezekiel added that Jerusalem had become so unfaithful that she made her sisters Samaria and Sodom look good by comparison (Ezekiel 16:49-52).

Jerusalem Street Dog

Then, eventually, in two widely separated acts of judgment, God honored the warnings he had given through Moses to scatter his people to the four corners of the earth if they did not remain faithful to him. In the days of the Assyrians and Babylonians, and then again by the armies of Rome, God used pagan nations to judge his people (Deut 28:1-68), while still promising to return them to their homeland, and to himself, in the last days (i.e. Deut 30:1-3).

Jerusalem Kids

So how then do we begin to sort all of this out? In the previous post, I mentioned the story of what happened when Joshua asked a divine messenger whether he was “for us, or against us?” (Joshua 5:13-15)  To this I’ll now add the question and implications of what the Apostle Paul was thinking when he asked followers of Christ, “If God is for us who can be against us?” (Rom 8:31-32).

Maybe we need to begin with ourselves. If God is for those who are in Christ, does this mean that we should be for, and never against, all who bear the name of Christ—in all their ways, and in every issue?

Maybe if we begin with ourselves first, and weigh what we have been taught by Christ regarding blessing and cursing, we will find the light we need to consider the way we relate to the nation of Israel in her present political, military, moral, spiritual, and increasingly international issues.

I’ll try to stay with the discussion on this one and let it play out. Let’s all try to ask our Lord for discernment, and try not to be heavy handed with one another as we try to do justice to the different sides of this issue.

Let’s also not be surprised or too alarmed if we hear some strong emotions expressed in the process. This can be a good time to step up to the challenge of wanting to know and speak the truth in love.


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105 Comments »

105 Responses to “Implications of Supporting Israel”

  1. SFDBWV says:

    Mart, in many ways you have already answered your own questions. If we look to scripture we clearly see it explained that we are to bless Israel.

    I will take us to the story of Balaam and his famous talking donkey, Numbers 22, 23, 24. Here as today Israel’s neighbors hated her and wanted her utterly destroyed and driven from the land, but the Angel of the Lord prevented Balaam from cursing Israel. As well as in the end Balaam ended up cursing the very people who would have seen Israel destroyed (Numbers24: 15-25).

    Balaam wanted to, for he was being paid well for his allying himself with Israel’s enemies, just like today the western world is in bed with every Islamic country that will trade its oil for our money.

    Look also to history, what country throughout history that came against the Jew survived as a world power? Babylon? Rome? Spain? Germany? Russia? I can dig deeper if necessary, but the point is that nations that persecuted the Jew have paid a heavy price at the hand of God for it.

    Yes there is no doubt Israel failed to do what God had charged them to do, but there is no nation on earth that has not also failed God.

    Here in these end times Israel has been reestablished as a nation and just like the clock of time has reset itself back thousands of years, Israel’s neighbors once again want her driven from the land.

    Strain to look and you will see the Angel of the Lord standing in the way once again to prevent Israel from being cursed by her friends or her enemies just as He did against Balaam.

    Why? Because God has a plan and a purpose for Israel and no power on earth will prevent God from exacting His will upon it.

    Joshua and Moses both presented a choice to their people, to choose this day whether they wanted blessings or cursings for themselves.

    I am neither of these great men, but have the good sense to know which side of my bread the butter is on, so I stand with Israel as a nation and so ally myself with God.

    I will have a lot more to say as this conversation grows, but simply stated I have made my stand and for me and my house we stand with the Lord.

    Steve

  2. cathyol07 says:

    …when this topic was discussed on our church..i was afraid ar first of what God can do to those who cursed His nation.that’s why we pray that our leader would have a wise decision over this matter..
    but knowing that “if God is for us who cAn be against us”..
    there’s nothing to be afraid..
    let’s pray for Israel..

  3. cathyol07 says:

    i’m new here.and i know GOd leads me here..my faith bacame stronger when i started reading all the articles here..
    we should support Israel..it is God’s nation..we have seen the dangers that happened to those countries that go against Israel..even my country Philippines was not an exemption.the LOrd is powerful. He can take away everything in just a second.we should follow His word..And we should go for Israel..

  4. cathyol07 says:

    we understand sir steve..its nice to be here..i’m fromthe Philippines..

  5. SFDBWV says:

    Hello Cathyol07, welcome and I am very glad to hear from you. I have been in the Philippines and have nothing but pleasant and fond memories of your country and people.

    Steve

  6. cathyol07 says:

    thank you sir..Jesus is amazing..He brought me here..i’ve been reading our daily bread for a long time..and it help me alot..that’s why i’m still here strong and my faith will never be shaken..
    this topic was also our topic in our church.God has already proven that He will cursed those who cursed His nation..
    let’s pray that everyone and every nation would support Israel..

  7. remarutho says:

    Good Morning Mart & Friends!

    From the end of WWII to the present, the Middle East has become one huge classroom. All the peoples of the world have studied war there. Governments oversee arms manufacture – governments who have the heavy industry required: USA, the then USSR, the then Czechoslovakia, other European and British countries…and arms have been supplied indiscriminately in the Middle East. Israel itself has become a major manufacturer and seller of weapons. Imagine an American soldier, with Kevlar armor, AN/AVS apparatus, miniature communications and GPS handhelds. This fighter is state-of-the-art – honed and equipped to fight with weapons developed in Middle Eastern conflicts.

    By worldly thinking, Israel has a right to defend itself. Hatred of that tiny nation has become a proud tradition among the nations surrounding her. The prophet Zechariah gives the oracle of God in chapter 12. Many nations of the Middle East hope to disprove the blessing Zechariah brings, “The inhabitants of Jerusalem have strength through the LORD of hosts, their God.” (Zechariah 12:5) In our day, I believe the worldly reasoning is “through the USA.” This opinion is prevalent even though the US provided arms to Nasser of Egypt in the action against Israel in the ‘60s. The US is currently aligned with Israel, except for some who have seen the second-class citizenship of poor Palestinians in Israel. Palestinian housing settlements in no way resemble Israeli settlements. This is tenements compared to luxury homes. Rich Palestinians (Christian and Muslim) still hope for a homeland. A Christian in Israel is a Palestinian, not an Israeli. Perhaps it is simply good to be in the Holy Land – and non-Jews are to appreciate the honor.

    Zechariah has a word for Jerusalem herself: “And I (says the LORD) will pour out a spirit of compassion and supplication on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that, when they look on the one whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one mourns over a firstborn.” (Zechariah 12:10)

    Jesus Messiah, is the only hope of the Middle East. Please pray for those bringing the Good News to Islamist terror cells. Please pray for Jerusalem to be brought to tears of mourning for the loss of the Rabbi from Nazareth (as the LORD spoke through Zechariah).

    Blessings,
    Maru

  8. poohpity says:

    If I were to support Israel in every decision that they are making regarding present political, military, moral, spiritual, and increasingly international issues then I would not be true to my beliefs. Just as if I always supported my fellow believers when things one teaches seems to be against what the bible teaches or when behaviors are contrary to what some say they believe then I would be going against my convictions. I do not believe that love allows for us to continue in sin or things that are against God. Now please understand that I am not at all saying that we will ever be perfect and without sin but just as we have discussed in the past there is a time to confront, rebuke, or hold someone accountable.

    Just as with Israel we have seen the beginning of that nation we have also been told how it will be in the middle and the end through, prophesy but God does not allow them to continue as they are. They have to go through all the things they have to go through to get where they are going. I do not support all the things they are involved in or how they are doing them but I do know that they are a separate nation that God has chosen to reveal Himself through.

    It is obvious that Israel and others have used their relationship with God for their own purposes rather than what God had in mind and that will be something that will be around until God’s time to end it. What we do in the mean time by standing up for justice, seeking mercy and HUMBLY walking our God and do not think that means going without careful rebuke while looking within at our own flaws but not looking the other way when something is wrong.

  9. florida7sun says:

    Mart, you are taking us out into deep water again. That’s where the Lord wants us to be as we consider the full counsel of His Word from Alpha to Omega.

    There is so much here to pray about in seeking His Truth. Initially my thoughts take me to Cain’s killing of his brother Abel. His Word teaches that … “the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life.” – Leviticus 17:11

    Then I think of John 6:37 – “All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. And, John 10:4 – “When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice.”

    I pray for the peace of Israel and Jerusalem. And, as I consider John 3:16 and the breath of His Word, my peace (and the peace of the whole world) is only found through His Shed Blood. That which is precious to Him and covered by His Blood will endure forever in Heaven.

    I know that is why we are called to proclaim His Gospel. No wonder Paul focused his sight on the Cross: I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead. – Philippians 3:10-11

    Land can produce idols of stone and wood. It can even produce a golden calf. There is sin throughout the land. Cain’s adoration of what was brought forth from the ground resulted in banishment and consequences.

    Only the Blood of our Lord and Savior is acceptable to Our Father as atonement for our sins.

    So, yes, in support of Israel, I pray all eyes will see our Risen Lord; for He truly is the resurrection and the life.

    Blessings to all, Ray

  10. poohpity says:

    Ray, I would like to offer a thought on one issue about Cain’s offering not that it was from the land but it was not the best of what was produced for the Lord so there did not offer the best of what he had. (Gen 4:2-5). It would seem that God knows our hearts and motives. Proverbs 21:27

  11. bratimus says:

    the last post and this post, started a thought.

    Now the reestablihing of Israel that was done in 1948 through the U.N. is this the reestablishing of Israel that is spoken of in Prophecy.

    I get the feelling that we haven’t seen the reestablishuing of Israel that God has in mind.

    twenty years didn’t even go by before the world let Israel satnd alone in the 6 day war in 1967.

  12. remarutho says:

    Hello Pooh and Ray —

    The Lord said to Cain, “Where is your brother Abel?” Cain said, “I do not know; am I my brother’s keeper?” And the Lord said, “What have you done? Listen; your brother’s blood is crying out to me from the ground, which has opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand. When you till the ground, it will not longer yield to you its strength; you will be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth.” (Genesis 4:9-12)

    Jesus reminded the temple leaders of the innocent blood shed in the lying spirit of “I didn’t do it.” (Matthew 23:35) In my lifetime, I have never heard of all the sons/daughters of Abraham meeting in peace and accord. The blood of both Jews and Muslims — Israelis and Palestinians is crying out from the ground. I have trouble believing this is simply meant to be. I do believe no human agency can bring about reconciliation.

    Blessings,
    Maru

  13. SFDBWV says:

    Speaking of we Christians let me begin with a couple scripture verses; Luke 9: 49-50, here Jesus says “he that is not against us is for us.” Matthew 7:15 – 20 here Jesus warns us of false prophets who are known by their fruit.

    Completely understanding these comments I have clear understanding as how to perceive people who call themselves Christian and whether or not I am to be for or against them cart blanc.

    I am always *for* the Church, being the body of Christ and the elite of God; as a whole as a nation as represented as being one grouping.

    That is not to say that I am for every single individual who claims to be a Christian, each individual matter needs addressed just that way individually.

    So it is with Israel, as a whole as a nation as a group of people I can say I am for them in the same way I may say I am for England or the USA or Canada, but that does not and can never mean I am *for* each individual only because they are from any nation anywhere.

    The problem I have with this topic is that it forces me to make a decision based on the question, and not set on a fence. Here I can only be hot or cold neither lukewarm.

    So this is my position everyone else is entitled to their own, but just don’t get angry with my position just because it isn’t yours. Be hot be cold or be lukewarm choose for yourselves what is right in your heart. Let your conscience be your guide.

    God will judge us all for our choices, be certain of yours when you choose.

    Steve

  14. florida7sun says:

    Hi Pooh. I am always blessed by your insights. I believe Cain’s sacrifice to God was based upon his own reasoning. In Hebrews 11:4 it is written: “By faith Abel brought God a better offering than Cain did. By faith he was commended as righteous, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith Abel still speaks, even though he is dead.”

    The phrase “By faith Abel brought” indicates to me that God told Abel and Cain to bring a blood sacrifice in worship of Him. Romans 10:17 says “faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”

    I believe God’s word went forth to both Abel and Cain. One was obedient; one was not.

    Even though we have the Word of God today in many languages; many refuse to open their hearts to see the depth of what Jesus did on the Cross. The deceiver continually whispers, “Hast God said? Show me what you can do and I will reward you.”

    Yet the Cross still stands for all to see.

    As an aside, I know of a man who was a respected Fortune 100 CEO. One day a charitable organization came to him and said for a $25,000 contribution our board will name you “Man of the Year.” A contribution was given.

    At a big (black tie optional) event this man was praised for his lofty character and civic-mindedness. The next morning the “Man of the Year” was pictured, above the fold, in the daily newspaper. Two years later, this man was indicted by a grand jury for corporate corruption and is now in a federal prison.

    Cain may have sought to be named Man of the Year for the labor of his hands. I do not know. However, I agree with you Pooh. God knows our heart. He knew Cain’s motive.

    The Lord will rightly judge.

    In Christ, Ray

  15. bratimus says:

    From blessing and cursing Israel, we have gone to Cain and Abel interesting.

    Genesis 4:7 explains God’s disstifation with Cain.

    “If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.”

    It seems to me that God was trying to tell Cain that he gives into sin. and didn’t do things whole heartedly even in his offering to God. Even after God said this to him, he gave into sin and killed his brother

  16. tracey5tgbtg says:

    When Jesus, the Messiah, came to Jerusalem, the Jews ultimately rejected Him because He was not what they wanted and expected. They wanted a Messiah to rule in power, set them free from Roman rule, and make them a great nation on earth. And Jesus didn’t come to do that. He came to make atonement for our sins. Matt 1:21

    I think Israel today, is still blind to their true spiritual need, Romans 11:25-32. Two thousand years after Paul wrote those words, they are still in the same situation. They still want a savior who will deliver them from their enemies, not from their sins.

    If we say we will side with Israel what does that really mean? Of course they are God’s people, the race that He established His covenant with, but are they truly seeking God? As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as the election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable. Romans 11:28-29

    I appreciate the info from Maru. My understanding is that there is enmity between Jews and Palestinians and it has been so since Isaac and Ishmael; since Jacob and Esau.

    I don’t think God picks “sides.” He is God. He will have compassion on whom He will have compassion Exodus 33:19 and Romans 9:15. All who call on the name of the Lord will be saved. Romans 10:13

    Scripture clearly says that it is God’s ultimate plan to open the eyes of His people and restore them. But it is in His hands, in His time, in His way. To make it even more confusing, there are Messianic Jews. When will it be enough to consider that Israel’s eyes have been opened to their Messiah?

    I tend to agree with Bratimus that we haven’t seen the establishing of Israel that God had in mind.

  17. poohpity says:

    Ray, I can not assume that God told Cain anything about an offering because it seems that it was what and how they presented it to the Lord to show their worship and verse 2 said Cain was a tiller of the ground and so that is what he did for a living and could not give from what he did not have while Abel brought of the Firstborn of his flocks which was his job. Whatever it was seemed not to be done in a way that the Lord respected from verse 7.

    I think that has to do with anything we present to the Lord just like whether we support Israel even when they do not do things that seem to trust in the Lord but like others have written that is more on an individual basis rather on a whole. Would we support a believer who is killing someone and not have them serve the consequences of their behavior or protect the victim.

    What if the nations around Israel served the Lord in a better way would we then support them and hope that Israel gets her due justice?

  18. florida7sun says:

    Pooh, I look to the Cross and the shed blood of my Savior. There is no other way for the remission of sins in Israel or any other nation. Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel had their nakedness covered with the skins of animals. Blood was shed. Hebrews 9:22 relates the importance of blood sacrifice and its application in worship. Jude 1:11 references the “way of Cain.”

  19. remarutho says:

    Mart –

    You have put together Joshua’s vision of the angel of God with a drawn sworn and Paul’s teaching in his letter to the Romans that facing peril is possible through the assurance of God’s mighty presence with his people. (Joshua 5:13-15) and (Romans 8:31-32). Tracey brought up Paul’s sadness over the hardened hearts (Romans 11:25) of his fellow Jews, since the followers of Jesus Christ are a “wild olive shoot grafted in” (Romans 11:17) the place of broken branches of the olive tree of Judaism. I believe the Messianic Jews have been mentioned as well – an evangelistic movement of Jews who worship Jesus as the Savior sent by the Father. Mohammed claims that the Prophet Isa (his name for Jesus Christ) will appear at the end of time. It may be we live in a time when the world is just beginning to receive the only Son of God. Perhaps it is not as late in time as some say.

    Paul quotes the prophet Isaiah as evidence that Messiah will “come to Zion as Redeemer, to those in Jacob who turn from transgression, says the Lord.” (Isaiah 59:20) BTA has shared such hope here for God’s chosen people; and it seems that Jesus will be revealed to the remainder of the faithful sons and daughters of Jacob in God’s time. National governments do not comprise the people of God.

    I can do only one thing I am confident is God’s will. That is to pray in the Spirit for all peoples. Paul told the church at Rome, “Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but that very Spirit intercedes with sighs too deep for words. And God, who searches the heart, knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.” Isaiah brought the promise of the child born “to us.” The Lord has sent word that Messiah’s “authority shall grow continually, and there shall be endless peace for the throne of David and his kingdom.” (Isaiah 9:7) Blessings, Maru

  20. Mart De Haan says:

    Some of the questions, I think we need to consider when we are talking about the implications of supporting )(or not supporting)Israel are:

    What are we supporting (or not)?

    Is it that Israel is God’s “anointed servant,” so that, as David would not take the life of Saul because he would not lift his hand against The Lord’s anointed (i.e. 1Sam 24:6), so we do not want to stand with those who wish the destruction of Israel?

    Is it that we support Israel’s right to use whatever means necessary to protect her own existence at the expense of others?

    Is it that we believe Israel is entitled to the land, on her own terms and in her own time (i.e. while she seeks a defense based on military superiority and international alliances?

    Is it that we believe that Christians put Christ in the best light by taking sides with Israel in the current political and military conflict?

    Is it that we believe that the promise to “bless those who bless” Israel trumps issues of social justice and spiritual faith?

    Is it that we think we are supporting Israel by confessing solidarity with her even though the prophets are predicting that in the end times 2/3 of the nation will be judged by God (i.e. roughly the same as Revelation says about the judgment of the nations)?

    Was David’s refusal to lift a hand against the Lord’s anointed the same thing as wanting to be counted among those who supported Saul and enabled the King to do what he was doing in his anger and self-protection?

    My guess is that there are many more questions that would help us to clarify the distinctions that need to be made in this issue.

  21. remarutho says:

    Good Morning Mart & Friends!

    If ever there was a time when Israel was not observing the Jubilee (Leviticus 25:10) and (Numbers 36:4) – it is today. The failure to see the humanity of Palestinians (who are not really aliens) is a stance that will destroy the nation of Israel from within. It also triggers deep hostility from ultra-militant Islamists all over the world. Israel has its finger on the trigger of jihad.

    Injustice is as deeply ingrained in Israeli society as it was in their nemesis, European fascism in the 1930s and ‘40s. Will the joy of the Lord – and the open hand of God’s love ever prevail again in Israeli society? It does not seem so. There are Christians, Muslims and Jews who work together for true reconciliation. It is still a tiny movement – a “women’s movement.” My sense is that it is not taken to heart in the greater society. The United States cannot point a finger at Israel on the issue of increasing poverty. The only forum for censure is the floor of the General Assembly of the UN. Maru

  22. SFDBWV says:

    Wow I can hardly believe what I read. On one hand as a Christian I am told I should have no opinion politically or see life around me in any other light than that of a blind man, that I should be deaf and dumb on any current political issue in the world. While ignoring all scripture that clearly tells me what direction to take regarding my attitude with Israel as a people and or nation.

    On the other I am told to see Israel as an evil tyrant to her neighbors and the aggressor in the entire Middle East conflict today.

    Am I living in Bizzaro Land?

    As a man especially as a Christian man I can clearly see right and wrong in their light. Any wrong perpetrated against another man is wrong. However we do not yet live in that future Kingdom where the lion lays down with the lamb, where Christ sits on His earthly throne in Jerusalem. Where Palestinian and Jew celebrate the Feast of the Tabernacle together.

    We are still on earth with all of its problems. I would guess that the Islamic Palestinian today does not celebrate any other Jewish holidays?

    Is Israel today at war with the entire rest of the world because it is not Jewish?

    No it is a plethora of Islamic cells that have dozens of names that are at war against the non Islamic world, if you think I exaggerate ask the people of New York City, or go to Burma or Indonesia or Africa and yes of course the Middle East.

    No westerner is safe from these cowards that kidnap and murder in the name of their god and hold the world ransom to force Israel from the land.

    Why? Because westerners are traditionally Christian and so tend to favor Israel spiritually and as an ally.

    So here in this forum the ideals of this Islamic hatred are furthered in an attempt to sway Christian opinion in their favor.

    Do not be deceived, Israel as a nation is favored by God, to make a stand against her is to make a stand against God’s promises, as it was in King David’s time and as well today.

    Steve

  23. remarutho says:

    Good Morning Steve!

    You wrote:
    “So here in this forum the ideals of this Islamic hatred are furthered in an attempt to sway Christian opinion in their favor.”

    It seems to me hatred of any kind has no ideals. Opinion would be what each (wo)man forms from conscience and Scriptural holiness. Prayerful and sincere dialogue trumps returning hatred for hatred.

    Yours in Christ,
    Maru

    PS I am listening prayerfully to you.

  24. oneg2dblu says:

    What a pit of confusion we are trying to walk ourselves through with this topic of Israel. To support or not support, what which we can not even define collectively for ourselves, is an absurdity at best.
    Who is this real Israel we speak of? Is it the geographical state re-established by its new borders? Is it the people living in that state? Is it the Jewish people living anywhere on earth, who practice the religion of Judaism?
    To me, it must be God’s chosen, his elect, his followers, his believers, all those whose Faith is given by God, and is set on God.
    Why must we try to define it, when it is really all God’s to be defined? We are to support all the Word of God, the Promises of God, the people of God.
    Call it whatever you wish, but if they represent something “other than” the Gospel you have heard that brought you to Jesus Christ, than you tread a dangerous path which appears to lead every livnig person to Him regardless of their conviction, religion, original of birth, polictical persuasion, or llifestyle. For who are we to Judge them? As we say, Only God can do that!
    Who are we but His Possession, His Elect, His for Eternity, and His Bible Believing, Gospel Honoring, Sighted by His Faith alone, and the Sheep who Hear His Voice. So, we must judge who we are to support as well!
    In that premise alone… We Support God’s Word, God’s People and we had better support all of it!
    I would say let’s get it right, let’s get it settled once and for all, but only God can do that!
    So, I put my trust in Him, that He will give me the right to choose, what He has given me to choose, as one who will follow His Word, Matthew 16:19 “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” Gary

  25. poohpity says:

    Well Maru, I will chose not to take offensive to “It is still a tiny movement – a “women’s movement.” even though it is very demeaning. :-)

    I fully believe that the land that the Lord gave Israel is Israel’s of which it’s borders are still not achieved and even what they did take during the first conquest was not done to the extent that God had directed them to do. Which they still are suffering the consequences of those choices. Is it any different to the way most Christians live out their lives in their own strength doing what they think is best and the way they think is best rather than trusting God.

    Look at how many times battles that the Lord had people fight and do things that seemed strange to the army of Israel like just using people who drank out of their hands which shrunk the army down to three hundred or the time they used clay jars with lanterns inside or the time when God had them march around a city for seven days and then blow trumpets which brought the walls down. So do I agree and support the way Israel is doing things today? No, I guess because I do not care how large an army is or how much military might they display what God has planned for them is going to happen. Do I consider Israel God’s people and support them in someways , yes.

    There is not a lot Christians can do if putting faith in military or politics or money or international treaties is where their faith lies. Even if we pick sides without considering that there are folks on either side that are innocent bystanders and adopt an attitude of malice, anger and hatred toward any human being no matter what their religion is or any other stand they take and not consider as Jesus asked us to be while we are amongst them “I am sending you out as sheep among wolves. Be as wary as serpents and as harmless as dove’s” I take that to mean just what it says. Or to love our enemies or Israel’s enemies because what good is it to love those who love us back even those who are not friends of Jesus do that.

    I wish I could say that all that the Lord asks us to do when coming against those who are different or do not believe as we do or that we see as enemies was easy to do but it is not. We are called to rise above and it is so obvious just on this sight alone that the animosity can draw lines when we just do not agree on some issues or are able to discuss things without name calling, badgering and put downs. What do we really expect from those who are God’s chosen like Israel or even us as Christians when our behavior shows nothing different then what we find so much in the world around us. I for one have to admit I fall so short when it comes anger, resentment and feelings of disdain. I sure can not point any fingers at anyone but I sure do need people to let me know when I am not acting in a way that brings Glory to God because frankly, I need gentle rebuking, conviction and being held accountable and that will be needed until the day I die because there will always be areas that need work.

    Do I support people when they are wrong? No. Do I love them and want the best for them? Yes.

  26. poohpity says:

    Ray, just wanted to let you know that there were all kinds of other offerings after the law was given like grain and first firsts from the ground and what the brothers gave to the Lord again I will not assume that they had to be blood offerings but if they had to be then Cain needed to go to Abel and barter for one of his flock? God does not ask us to give an offering of we we do not possess but out of what we do have. That would seem similar to taking out a credit card and tithing on borrowed money.

  27. gerpie says:

    I appreciated you putting your thoughts together and writing it here this morning Steve. Thank you!

  28. bill34sl says:

    In Rom.8:31 I believe Paul wanted to imply that if God is on our side no one can defeat His purpose on us, not even physical death. In the same way, if God purposed to gather back His people and prosper them in the Millenium, no one can defeat that purpose or prevent it from happening.

    I, for one, am an admirer of the nation Israel for being a people that bears the name of God. Mart was right, whether in an ongoing conflict between this chosen nation and its neighbor(s) or in its attempted resolution for that matter, we either find ourselves aligning with one party or with the other. Israel, being God’s favored nation should be respected for what she is. But it doesn’t mean we have to embrace all their political agendas just because they’re God’s chosen people. Being chosen doesn’t make them perfect, at least not yet. For us who are familiar with their story in the Old Testament, we knew how God called them a “stiffnecked” people. (Ex.32:9). How many times God sent prophets to warn them of their wicked attitudes was not a few. Yet they carried on. God promised to tame the nations surrounding them if they follow His statutes diligently. Clearly, this is not happening to this nation at present. When they are acting opposite God’s way I believe we should withdraw our support on
    them in that particular area. Nevertheless, we should not curse them. This prerogative belongs to God alone.
    But even if Israel will be cursed, she will be blessed abundantly, eventually.

  29. bratimus says:

    I came to the conclusion 7-8 years ago that we are living in Bizzro land ill call it by another name but it has the same meaning.

    I support Israel for the name sake, will i agree with every thing they do, probably not, we all have to live by our own principles.

  30. SFDBWV says:

    Will add this to my statements, where and with whom did Balaam die? (Joshua 13: 22) He dies right there with the enemy of Israel in the land his friends meant to drive Israel from. I am not certain but I think it was in the valley of the plains or Megiddo (Armageddon).

    Peter says in 2 Peter 2:16 that Balaam was rebuked for his *iniquity*.
    Jude 11 says that Balaam erred.
    Revelation 2:14 Christ says to the church of Pergamos that He has an issue with them that hold the doctrine of Balaam who taught Balac to cast a stumbling block before the children of Israel.

    What is the sin of Balaam? He was guilty of wanting to curse Israel, to side with her enemies of murmuring and slandering Israel.

    If we hold someone in contempt are we not guilty of cursing and murmuring and slandering.

    In a future time in a future battle others who side with Israel’s enemies will parish with them in the same valley as did Balaam.

    Search your heart, search the scriptures, what does the Word of God say and what does the Spirit say to your heart?

    I already know what God has spoken into my heart; I am at peace with it.

    Steve

  31. foreverblessed says:

    This is a hard topic. In my church there is a couple who have a heart for Israel, they are so full of love and warmth for them. I believe, we have to ask God to lead us in what to do, to fill our hearts with love for those He wants us be a difference now.
    I ask God: is it really so that we have to have a special love for Israel if we are a christian? And what about the Northern tribes, they are Israel too? Where are thy, if we do not know where they are and who they are, how can we have a special love for them?

    And what about the command not to be racial, have no regards for tribes, color, nations,male/female but be a christian, and working for Christ in the place and with the people He has chosen for me to be a light to.
    (and about the female thing someone wrote about, I just saw a series on tv about the slaves, and how it was ended very late in the Netherlands, just in 1863, while it was abandoned in England a lot sooner. It was a ladies thing that changed it here in our country, women were convinced this should stop, sooner then men. So it is not a bad thing to call it a female thing. The women say that the black people are just as much men made in God;s image as the white people, and this unjustice should stop. So it is with all tribes and nations, they are all made in God’s image, and even if Israel is chosen, it is chosen not for itself but to bring salvation to the whole earth, in future era.)

  32. remarutho says:

    Mart & Friends –
    E. Stanley Jones wrote:
    “The most absolutely happy people of the world are those who choose to care until it hurts. The most miserable people are those who center upon themselves and deliberately shun the cares of others in the interest of their own happiness.” (The Christ of the Mount)
    Religion means to be “reconnected” to God. The three faiths of Israel/Palestine jostle together uneasily. God’s Law, brought through Moses, states: “When an alien resides with you in your land, you shall not oppress the alien. The alien who resides with you shall be to you as the citizen among you; you shall love the alien as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.” (Leviticus 19:33-34) This is not proof-texting (making a rabbit trail through Scripture to make a questionable point). This is the spirit of the Law. Palestinian Christians have been in the land since the 1st c. AD.
    Blessings,
    Maru

  33. Kroger says:

    Because you know that it can be a little difficult, giving comments to ODB, but I just wanted to say quickly somewhere that Anne Cetas’s article today, Oct 17, was a great one. — Sincerely, Scott Kroger

  34. florida7sun says:

    Pooh, in love I have to share that our righteousness is like filthy rags in the Lord’s sight. We were dead in our trespasses and sins. Because Adam listened to Eve God cursed the ground Cain tilled. – Genesis 3:17-18 Only a blood sacrifice provided a covering for his sin. Today, the land – all the land – is still cursed. Our salvation and the fruit of our hands are acceptable to Him only through the shed blood of the Lamb of God. We have His Word.

    Jehovah-Jireh, The Lord will provide.

  35. poohpity says:

    Today in church I was given some food for thought and it applied to this topic so much. “Everything we do, say, think, and feel is an act of worship to our God.” Do we show worship to God by hatred, cursing someone, anger, malice, resentment, pride, prejudice and thinking we are better than another human being? People of another faith like Islam are rooted in anger so do we as Christians return that or are we called to pray and show them the love of Christ? Does that love demand human intervention or do we by our act of worship allow God to take care of those things that make Him sad? How can we show support while not supporting things that are against God? If we consider anything we do as an act of worship I wonder what choices we will make?

  36. poohpity says:

    Ray, I know that. I thought we were talking about the difference in Cain’s offering and Abel’s. Any way it seems we have ventured off the topic. What you are speaking of is sacrifices and Cain and Abel were giving offerings from the supposedly best of what they had as an act of worship. The blood sacrifice is an altogether different thing than what the son’s of Adam were doing.

  37. remarutho says:

    Hello Mart & Friends!

    The Cain and Abel story applies to the topic “The Implications of Supporting Israel” because Jesus mentioned the “innocent blood of Abel” when he preached to the religious leaders who were seeking to kill him. Jesus’ blood is also innocent. Jesus proclaims seven woes for the temple officials. (Matthew 23:13-36)

    Cain and Abel are the sons of Adam. In our discussion, the main thing by analogy is that Isaac and Ishmael (representing the Jews and the Muslims respectively) are the sons of Abraham. (This comparison of two brothers at odds is richer when we consider Jacob and Esau, the sons of Isaac.) In our time, we who pray for the nation of Israel/Palestine often remember that Jews, Christians and Muslims are all “children of Abraham.” Christians are grafted into the family tree of the Jews by their faith in Christ. (Romans 11:17)

    Cain murdered his brother. When Jews (Israelis) and Muslims (Palestinians) bomb one another, they simply repeat the ancient history told in Genesis. Many pray that they will learn better. So far, they have not. It is a grudge that needs to be healed. At this point in the history of Israel/Palestine, sadly, the Christians in the country have little voice in reconciliation. Few Christians have remained in the land, so that they have no political power in the ongoing struggle. All three – Jews, Christians and Muslims – vie for control of Jerusalem, because it is the religious and historic “prize.”

    When the world looks at the whole, long, bloody history of the Holy Land, Christians must own up to the 300 years of Crusades during which we struggled for control of Jerusalem – and other parts of Israel/Palestine. We are not innocent in the matter. Praying for the peace of Jerusalem is a complicated and long commitment to pray. (Psalm 122:6) We are also to seek the good of the city. (v 9)

    Blessings,
    Maru

  38. Mart De Haan says:

    Steve, I hear your point that Israel is a nation favored by God, with the implication that if we want to be on God’s side, we have no choice but to support Israel.

    For that reason the question, “support her in what ways?” Do we want our country to continue giving her the kind of military and political support that enables her to live with the illusion that, with the help of her powerful allies, military strength, and strategy of increasing her foot print in the territories she can find peace and security in her ancestral homeland?

    More importantly is it wise and loving to give Israel the partisan support of the Body of Christ?

    While resonating with the Apostle Paul’s reasons to be indebted to the “chosen people” (Rom 9:1-6), I don’t want to be found working against a God who is not yet ready to give his chosen nation security and peace– while they are yet resisting the meaning of their very existence as a nation chosen by God for the blessing of all.

    The question once again is “what does love (for Israel and for all nations) ask of us?

    What does wisdom (which reminds us that there is a time and a season for all things) ask of us a representatives of Christ?

  39. oneg2dblu says:

    Mart,I pray for the Peace of Jerusalem often, and not because we will ever see this peace in Israel’s laying down of its armorment that they feel now protects them. Not because we will suddenly see any of those bording states, suddenly giving up those blood stained borders either. But because, if we do see this *peace* I pray for, it will mean that Christ has returned to that very place to bring about the fulfillment of the scriptures.
    We all know the only peace to be had there today, is the Unsurpassed Peace of God, upon each Soul, that has seen Chrsit living in their heart. The scriptures do not indicate that they will suddenly Believe as a Nation, without Christ’s returning.
    So, my everyday prayer is the God will change us all to receive Him, one soul at a time, and that can and does happen every day.
    I support the Scriptural Israel, but it cannot be seen
    in the actions, military might, or America’s Aid to that tiny Nation, because America also turns its collective back on God every day.
    All Nations are corrupt in that current premise, as no Nation gives up there might, their treasure, their heritage,or their very essence, and Repents to to please Almighty God!
    Israel, is scripturally God’s Chosen People, but today, God chooses people One Soul at a time.
    But for the few who will, “Go into all the nations and bring the Good News” God suffers the rest of humanity with the perils of this life, in awaiting His Return. Those who will go, already have Christ in their very being, already have His Peace in their blood, and to me
    that is not this current Isreal we know.
    What amazes me is that the Apostles who were imprissioned for their spreading the Gospel, and were released by an angel in the night, and then they went immediately back to the “Jewish Temple Courts,” to court the Jews who would gather there. My prayers for Jerusalem are doing the same thing through asking Our God, to give them this Peace that they do not currently have or show to the rest of the world! We *must* pray for them, for evry true Christian knows, “Today is the very day of their Salvation, to those Who Will Believe!
    Be Blesssed,Gary

  40. SFDBWV says:

    Mart, dear friend we are not at odds over our love for Christ or for the lost souls of every tongue and nation in the earth, not in the least bit. My commission from Christ is the same as yours, to spread the Gospel into all nations and to every tongue.

    All we can do is present the Gospel; either it finds fertile soil or rocks. I don’t remember there being an instruction from Jesus to be anything but direct and bold in presenting the good news that Christ has come and offers all salvation from sin through belief in Him.

    In my best ability given the time I have I will answer your questions.

    Yes I think that my country should be a military ally to Israel, not to perpetuate an illusion for her but to do the right thing.

    Israel as a nation there in the Middle East is the only true friend America has there; we share a common ideology of living as well as goals for world peace. Our nations share financial connections and citizens; we are a friend to each other. Why wouldn’t we be allies?

    Do you think America is causing Israel to misplace her trust in allies rather than in God alone? The same question can apply to every nation, in whom do we trust?

    I see America being attacked by atheistic political activists who want crosses removed from view, God and especially Jesus removed from print and from every public place. Having their way, Americans would then place their trust in whom?

    There is an old adage “Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition.”

    There is no instruction from God that denies Israel allies. Only prophesy that at a future time she will be alone against the world. As we watch today’s political headlines we can see America slipping away from doing the right thing and sliding into being less and less important in the world, judgment for America is coming and the only thing at this point that may hold it off is the prayers of its Christians and its friendship with Israel.

    When the “rapture” comes, both of the last remaining reasons for God withholding judgment will be removed. And America along with the rest of the world will be judged.

    “Is it wise and loving to give Israel the partisan support of the Body of Christ?”

    Please allow me to take up this question with a separate post….time restraints, I’m sorry.

    Steve

  41. oneg2dblu says:

    I put that emphasis on, we MUST pray for Israel as a Nation, because of the quote that bratimus used in Genesis 4:7. that says, “sin is crouching at your door and you should rule over it.” I prefere the ESV,or the NIV, that says, you *must* rule over it.
    The NLT is also one of my prefered translations as it says, “You will be accepted if you do what is right. But if you refuse to do what is right, then watch out!
    Sin is crouching at the door, eager to control you. But you must subdue it and be its master.”
    I prefere a powerful well written commanding word, over a possible “looser interpretaion” of one’s leaning.
    To me, the word *must* puts all of our effort in its proper place, as we must make an effort to resist sin at all cost, or it rules over us.
    Severe consequences of sin, need those more severe words, to give them the power they (not should or may) have, but must have.
    I feel a sharp point every time, and a much smoother one, only occaisionally. Be Blessed, Gary

  42. poohpity says:

    So Mart, is what you are saying that as with any of Israel’s allies we may be interfering with the lesson that God is trying to teach her? They are becoming, as they have in the past, dependent on everything but God. I wonder if the wise thing to ask is, “what is God trying to do there and do we stay out of the way?”.

    People have referred to the USA as a Christians nation but yet the heads of this nation do not rely on the Lord’s leading while there may be some who live here that are Christians but there are also many other faiths practiced. Although some of the people when developing this nation used the bible to develop our laws and rights on a whole not everyone here, even Christians do not trust the Lord for wisdom, direction and provision.

    Just like raising children we would like to teach them to rely on the Lord yet we do everything for them we enable them to not grow or trust in the Lord. They depend on us as parents to provide rather than teaching them to look to the Lord and do things with His help for them to become dependent on Him not us. It goes back to that butterfly analogy God gave the caterpillar the ability to make a cocoon around itself so that when it was encased it has to struggle to get out to develop it’s wings without the struggle the wings do not develop and it is unable to fly.

    So if supporting Israel militarily or politically we are getting in God’s way then are we really helping or preventing God from asking her to be reliant on Him? God’s love helps us to suffer consequences when we make mistakes not as punishment but as a teaching tool to not repeat them but Israel as a nation has not learned the lesson God has been teaching through out it’s history.

  43. poohpity says:

    There is a big difference between supporting and enabling.

  44. Mart De Haan says:

    poohpity,
    Yes, you’re right. There is a difference between being a supporter and an enabler. There is also a difference between being a true friend and a flatterer.

    Seems to me that treating Israel “as if God is for her… and on her side” is to ignore the rest of the story… i.e. the personal and national issues of justice and mercy that God holds all of us (including his chosen nation) accountable for.

  45. poohpity says:

    I agree.

    Because of my background I have been around those who flatter while neglecting the truth and leading in a good direction in which where is the benefit for a person. We talked about that before when gently holding another accountable is better than flattering someone in their folly. Solomon taught that. So considering the whole story brings us to a point where we really have to ask God for wisdom in supporting or confronting.

  46. SFDBWV says:

    “Is it wise and loving to give Israel partisan support from the Body of Christ?”

    The Body of Christ being that entity comprised of all Christian believers made up from all over the world of every nation and tongue; of every denomination and every sect that calls Jesus Lord. Though Jesus said of some, that ask had they not prophesied, cast out demons and did works using His name yet He answered by saying He never knew them. (Matthew 7: 21, 22, 23)

    So I must be very careful not to fall among those who use Christ’s name falsely.

    My quick answer is yes it is both wise and loving to give Israel her honored place in the story of Man and God.

    Wise because this is what God says in His Word, loving because we are to love all ( a task easier said by some than actually done).

    Partisan support; in many ways the English dictionary defines my position pretty well when it says a person who strongly supports one side often unreasonably and emotionally. I like especially the definition of fighting covertly to drive out occupying troops.

    This defines me as a Christian and also my position on Israel in this discussion.

    Now that I have once again drawn a line in the sand, please listen while I do some explaining.

    When the Church sends missionaries to the jungles of Borneo or the most remote reaches of the planet today, Israel has no significance to the people alien to the Word of God. They either have never heard of Israel or don’t care one way or the other. These remote areas are all that is left in the world as far as spreading the Gospel all over the world. As the Gospel has been preached and preached and preached again and again every where else.

    However in order to bring once again the Gospel to nations that have heard it time and time again we are confronted with new modern obstacles.

    What makes the issue of siding or not with Israel as issue at all is where we are once again are attempting to preach Christ. That being the Islamic world. Why would this be a problem for Christian missionaries? The problem is in two parts the first being the Islamic world has a religion that points a finger at Israel as says it corrupted the *Book* that the Jew purposely changed what the *Book* said in order to slant the view of the Jew in Gods favor. Their religion, one of total intolerance to all other religions, prohibits by death the conversion from Islam to Christianity.

    The second reason still tied to their religion is that they see Jesus as a good man and a prophet from God, but not the Son of God. Our scripture clearly says that to deny Christ’s birth is that of the spirit of the anti-christ.

    It gets better; Christianity gets all of its scripture information from the Jewish Torah as well as the Testimony of Jesus Christ. All of our teaching all of our insight all of our faith comes by hearing the Word of God. In large part a Jewish document.

    So now here we are trying to convert to Christianity a people who have been raised from birth from generations past to hate the Jew and deny Christ.

    Israel is a large stumbling block to all Islamic countries in even listening to what Christian missionaries may have to say. Where do we see Israel a stumbling block to other nations? In the end of the story in prophesy about the politics of the world leading up to Christ’s return. As stated over and over by me, Israel in the end will stand alone against the world and God will stand up for….Israel, no other nation gets such special treatment from God.

    Israel as a nation allows for Christian missionaries within its borders, when that time comes God will lift the blindness from Israel and she will see in great mourning her sin the one she pierced. I know this because the Word of God tells me so and the Holy Spirit that dwells in me confirms it.

    All other nations and people still around at that time will curse the God of Israel and die in their sins.

    The Body of Christ needs to show love to all people regardless of nationality and present the gospel to all. But never forget our Jewish roots and never think that the enemy of Israel is not also our enemy.

    Steve

  47. poohpity says:

    But Steve what will Israel look like in the day that the stands up for her? Will God stand up for her as she commits adultery with her allies while neglecting the One who gave her birth as a nation?

  48. poohpity says:

    I meant to say “in the day that the Lord stands up for her”.

  49. oneg2dblu says:

    Isn’t the real enemy of Israel also the same one as all humanity? Isn’t sin the real enemy that mankind can never have his religions overpower.
    Isn’t it all our humanity and our religion that fails all mankind?
    The only remedy is God, the only way to God is Christ.
    We must bring Christ to them throught the Word of God
    which is the only way for them to hear His Voice!
    Does supporting a worldly nation of people bring this eventuallity of His Truth about?
    I do not know about this use of flattery, or of being a true friend to Israel, but I do know, that the Holy Spirit compells me to expose evil in any form, and to pray that God would show Himself to all His Enemies.
    If we must use our words to bring about His, then that is what we must do. Is that being a true friend or just a flatterer? I guess it depends on the words we choose. Gary

  50. SFDBWV says:

    Pooh what did you look like when God stood up for you in spite of your adulteries and in spite of your part in nailing Christ to the cross?

    Steve

  51. poohpity says:

    I guess maybe you do not understand what I was saying. I was saying that the Israel that the Lord stands up in the end times has already gone through all the things she is has to go through to learn the lessons God has to teach her. Like the lessons she had to learn when God allowed the nations around Israel to carry her off and God told the people to just go with them and not fight against them because it was God allowing to happen to teach them not to depend on those nations for help that it would eventually turn around and bite them for doing it. So is Israel doing anything different now than she did thousands of years ago or do they keep repeating the same mistakes over and over expecting different results. Well I do have to say the weapons are different, the politics are different and the nations are different but Israel is still looking to everything outside of God it seems for help.

    To answer your question I look the same it is my heart that has changed and now I am covered by the blood of Christ so God looks at me through that blood. I did not nail Him to the Cross He chose to do that for us in our adulterous state because of His love not anything I did or did not do. You have to remember He did not have to do that if He could have seen a better way then He would have done that. Is your heart different now that you have Christ or is there still anger and hatred that the Lord is dealing with within you and what will it take to make that different? That is what I believe Israel is experiencing now so do we enable each other to continue in hatred or anger or do we gently rebuke or support the negative behavior?

  52. bratimus says:

    Ive been reading headlines and articles of this swaping prisoners between Israel and Hammas. Which started these last two topics.

    As I read I get the feeling that just as many Israeli’s have just as many concerns over this as do we who are posting on this blog. So this gets me to think that maybe we aren’t as far part as people think.

    I’m sure glad that God will judge me by my heart rarher than what my government does or doesn’t do.

  53. poohpity says:

    On a humorous note I just looked in the mirror and yes my appearance has changed from what it was when I started my walk with the Lord. At that time I was able to fit into tight Levi’s with leathers and boots with my Tattoos hanging out all over but now I wear stretch pants, sandals and baggy T-Shirts and only show my Tattoos when I go swimming. My top half is sagging past where it is supposed to be and my rear end has gotten flatter and my belly is bigger with gravity taking it’s toll on my face and whole body for that matter. LOL!!!

  54. remarutho says:

    Hey Poohpity —

    All that is truly beautiful about a woman (or man) does not change with age!

    Jesus said, “For the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Now when these things begin to take place, straighten up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawong near.” (Luke 21:27-28)

    All will be well-and every manner of thing will be well!
    Blessings,
    Maru :>)

  55. tracey5tgbtg says:

    Mart – this morning you wrote: The question once again is “what does love (for Israel and for all nations) ask of us?

    When I read that, I thought of Corrie ten Boom and her family. When the situation presented itself, they simply opened their home and risked their lives to help people who were going to be systematically killed. Although Corrie survived, her father and sister both died in Nazi captivity.

    Dietrich Bonhoeffer, who had the opportunity to leave Germany, ultimately came back and was put to death in a concentration camp because he couldn’t walk away from a situation he knew that God called him to be in.

    These people and others like them, acted out of the power of the Holy Spirit. They were led by the love of Christ in their hearts.

    John 15:13 Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.

    Reading Corrie ten Boom’s account of her ordeal is amazing. I cannot get through it without crying. Her and her sister’s faith in God absolutely carried them through. The most moving episode however, is her encounter with one of her former Nazi captors after she has just given a talk on forgiveness. The man comes up to her and says he knows that God has forgiven him and asks her to forgive him too. Only by obedience and the grace of God is she able to extend her hand and in that moment God allows her to have genuine forgiveness in her heart. Awesome.

    Compare with Elie Wiesel’s “Night.” This is an incredibly painful story of one who went through the holocaust without Jesus Christ. It is far more well-known than Corrie’s writings.

    The power that ten Boom and Bonhoeffer relied on was the power of God, not force and might and weapons.

    Psalm 44:3 It was not by their sword that they won the land, nor did their arm bring them victory; it was Your right hand, Your arm, and the light of Your face, for You loved them.

  56. remarutho says:

    Hello Tracey —

    Your examples sound the chord of love and trust in the Lord that gives the “joy unspeakable and full of glory,” even in the midst of chaos and confusion.

    Helen Keller, a great saint who overcame the obstacles of being blind and deaf said: “The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen, nor touched … but are felt in the heart.”

    Laying hold of the great riches of Christ’s kingdom is not a physical nor an intellectual thing — it is, as you say, that amazing gift of grace that transformed Corrie in an instant. The prophet Zechariah brings the word of God, “Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, says the Lord.” ((Zechariah 4:6)

    Reconciliation between Jews and Muslims seems impossible. But with God, all things are possible. (Matthew 19:26)

    In Him,
    Maru

  57. cathyol07 says:

    hi everyone,maybe what God ask for us was to love and support those whom God choose.Whatever they did and what kind of people are they,we still need to support them,since God told us to blessed His chosen nation..Let’s do what God has told us to do..

  58. cathyol07 says:

    sorry..i mean what God ask for us to do…

  59. Mart De Haan says:

    With regard to the nation of Israel, the Apostle Paul expressed both love and wisdom. He gave us reason to share his deep affection for his Jewish fellow citizens (Rom 9:1-5). Yet he also understood that when it comes to the favor and blessing of God, “They are not all Israel who are of Israel” (Rom 9:6).

    Look carefully at what God said to Abraham: “I will make you a great nation; I will bless you and make your name great; and you shall be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed” (Gen 12:2-3).

    In his letter to the Galatians the Apostle Paul explains how this promise was to be fulfilled. He indicates that God’s intent was that blessing would come to the world through a “descendant” of Abraham (Gal 3:16)

    If we don’t reflect on the kind of Abrahamic descendant God blesses(favors), we may unintentionally affirm in our own country, the Church, or God’s chosen nation the injustices and evils that the prophets of Israel consistently condemned.

    Am I mistaken to think that support for our own homeland right or wrong, the Church right or wrong, or Israel right or wrong– does not reflect the patterns of the Bible– and will give a watching world reason to think that we are motivated by partiality, politics, and self-serving alliances rather than by the love and purposes of Christ?

  60. SFDBWV says:

    Mart the Amish agree with you in that they hold no allegiance to any country. They have attempted to keep their original language intact their basic way of life and their lifestyle.

    They live in the world but try hard not to be of this world. I envy them in many ways.

    They have somewhat succeeded where other sects of Christianity have failed. The Mormons tried to make a nation for themselves but failed, Jim Jones is a good example of how such an idea can go terribly wrong. Yet the Roman Catholic Church formed out of Italy its own little country there in Rome. The Vatican.

    The Roman Catholic Church insisting that all Catholics hold their allegiance first to the Church then to whichever country they reside in.

    Somewhere in church history the original concepts of allegiances have become confused. I remember the story of Sergeant York and his conversion to Christ. His was not a solo story there in 1917 there were plenty of conscientious objectors to killing for their country.

    Even further back in history we have the Knights Templar who took up the sword to defend Christianity in the Holy Land.

    We even have the very familiar English song by Sabine Baring-Gould “Onward Christian Soldiers” originally written for children to sing as they walked between two towns, yet used by many to express their feelings in a different manner.

    Mart I feel your frustration as you see your point clearly and want everyone else to see it your way.

    However not everyone is going to. We live in this world and for most of us that means being a citizen of wherever we live. We can look to that future time when we will be citizens of heaven, but today I have to have earthly money to buy food at a grocery store here on earth. Though God will provide the means for me to do that He still is operating through the mechanics of this world, and so am I.

    Love our neighbor forgive others their wrongs do no harm to others, be a good citizen of where you are and a good example for others to follow. Do this and there is no disagreement of scripture.

    However asking me to deny what the scripture says about Israel has nothing to do with these precepts.

    If Islamic believers will not listen to Christ because of their blind hatred for Israel, this is not Israel’s fault. If I must abandon Israel as a friend and ally in order to appease their hatred, this isn’t right.

    If it were possible for these Islamic people to snuff out Israel, Christians would be next on their extermination list.

    Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition, this is a battle in the spiritual that the evil of this world has brought to the physical battlefield, there will be much bloodshed before this matter is finally put to rest by God alone.

    May God have mercy on us all.

    Steve

  61. Mart De Haan says:

    Steve,

    The issue is not no allegiance– but blind allegiance.

    It is not to deny anything the Scripture says– but to make sure that we do not affirm what it does not mean.

    It is not to withhold friendship– but to love well.

    It is not to choose either citizenship in heaven or on earth– but to do well by both.

    It is not to curse anyone– but to be a real blessing to all.

  62. oneg2dblu says:

    If all we Christians today, had these very words of the heart for Christ readily on our lips, as Shalit’s father had for his son, we would not let the world have us so easily, “Until we see him,(we’re)following with concern and anticipation.” I believe it could also be the words of Our Heavenly Father shows for us…His Adopted, is Anticipated, as He is awaiting us all with concern. If we could say that same for Israel today, He would be pleased to hear it! Gary

  63. remarutho says:

    Good Morning Mart & Friends!

    I do not believe you are mistaken – but rather spot-on.

    The hallmark of the global marketplace is spiritual distraction. The worldly mind and heart dwell upon things and the “look” of things – not the glory of God in Christ. John, in his first letter to the churches, draws the kingdom vs world distinction more exactly (1 John 2:16). Those who fix their minds and hearts upon all that is passing away (v 17) cannot hear – cannot see. (Jeremiah 5:21) Open eyes and open ears (open spiritually, not physically) result in a life founded on Scriptural holiness. Is the Church holding steady in this?

    The United States resembles Israel in its pursuit of security at all costs. That pursuit has led to shocking acts of paranoia. Israel has held a thousand Palestinians (and other aliens) in custody. This morning, the Israeli government is “spending” this asset for one Israeli (Shalit). The implication is that one of “ours” is worth more than a thousand of “yours.” Israelis have died from mortar fire – Palestinians have died from mortar fire. And yet ethnic/religious thinking continues, and fruitful dialogue is rejected. Are not Palestinian blood and Israeli blood both red?

    I believe the USA, along the border of Mexico, resembles the checkpoint line in Israel/Palestine in some places. There are Christians who condone this militant approach to national security. As followers of Jesus, we are called to acknowledge our social location and our own biases – and then act as disciples who radically choose his way (Colossians 1:27). The Church is established in the world to oppose the ways of the world.

    Blessings,
    Maru

  64. oneg2dblu says:

    tracey… Elie Wiesel did go through the painful horrors
    of the Holcaust without Christ, but not without God leading him to a Christian man. A man who showed him the love and forgiveness of Christ. Francois Muriac, a Roman Catholic who befriended him and urged him to not keep his story of the pain inside himself, but to break it out, and the Night was written. That very first transcript was given to Muriac.
    We each have such a story of not knowing Christ as well, and now we have a different life, because God led us to find Him, this Jesus we all write about today.
    I read about that last story night in a book called, You Changed My Life, by Max Lucado, Gary

  65. oneg2dblu says:

    Sorry I’m only human, and my editing feature isn’t up to self-correcting yet, I meant to say, I read about that story last night…

  66. oneg2dblu says:

    When God allows us to Adopt Israel, as God has adopted us, then we will also follow Israel with concern and anticipation, as we Pray for the Peace of Jerusalem.
    Gary

  67. SFDBWV says:

    Mart the subject you have brought to the table is about allegiance and especially blind allegiance.
    We all walk in semi blind allegiance to Christ, never clearly seeing things, always as Paul said through dark glass with nearly no or few absolutes.

    My allegiance is first to God, but I also have a responsibility to my family and those under my care. Many times those who are under my care may err may even do evil in another’s eyes, but that does not lessen my responsibility to them nor give cause for me to abandon them.

    There is nothing blind about making a decision based on fact. The fact being how you want to support your position and either use or ignore scripture to do so as seen by biased eyes.

    If I choose through a series of scripture and observations of fact around me to befriend Israel and so choose to support her in whatever way I can, this is my right to do so.

    If you choose to consciously support her enemies by voicing your opposition to Israel and use your concept of Christian attitudes to do so this is also your right.

    Don’t judge by not agreeing with you

    Jesus Himself said that when the message of the Gospel is presented by His followers and they are not welcomed and the message not received to shake the very dust off our feet for it will be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah than for those places (Matthew 10: 14, Mark 6: 11, Luke 9:5).

    Steve

  68. remarutho says:

    Good Morning Steve!

    It might be fruitful to place together the gospels we have heard so far. You wrote:

    “Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition, this is a battle in the spiritual that the evil of this world has brought to the physical battlefield, there will be much bloodshed before this matter is finally put to rest by God alone.”

    Jesus said: “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God.” (Matthew 5:9)

    I wonder if the spiritual battle is fought with ammunition made of lead — do you think so?

    In Him,
    Maru

  69. florida7sun says:

    Thank you, Gary. All of us have a story to tell of how we were introduced to our Lord and Savior. John 1:41 notes that “The first thing Andrew did was to find his brother Simon and tell him, “We have found the Messiah” (that is, the Christ).”

    As Mart indicated, our role in life “is not to curse anyone – but to be a blessing to all.”

    We are called to share Good News that we have found the Messiah. Having made the decision to accept Him as Lord and Savior, my citizenship is now in Heaven. In Him each of us are called to be His ambassador on earth. Like the Apostle Paul we are to present His Message wherever He sends us.

    Psalm 2:2 is true in Israel, Palestine, America and all other nations: “The kings of the earth take their stand and the rulers gather together against the LORD and against his Anointed One.” The importance of the Church in sharing His Love and Light to a pagan world has never been greater.

  70. SFDBWV says:

    Maru because you have ask of me I will answer; the spiritual battle is won or lost in the hearts and minds of men, the physical battle on the battlefield is fought with bullets.

    Islam has attacked America and any other country that is allied with Israel in any fashion.

    Anwar Sadat was murdered by his own countrymen because he made peace with Israel.

    Every day now some American son or daughter is killed by Islamic thugs because we defend ourselves against their terrorist habits.

    This will continue on and on until it reaches a global conflict, all the while real bullets and real blood will be spent.

    I wish we all lived in that castle in the sky where everything is rosy, but we do not. You and I live in some peace and security only because there is someone out there with a gun and ammunition enabling us to.

    Steve

  71. oneg2dblu says:

    Steve. Yes, there is someone out there giving us some peace and secruity as we speak, but it is not ever going to be man’s place to provide this for himself, his country, or his family, because it is only through Christ that really get complete peace and security.
    That is what we can provide for them.
    Evil will always have its day somewhere in this world and in the hearts of those who do not currently have the real peace and security they need. For them, only their bullets, their terrorism, their destructive plans, can provide them a temporary solution to an unending problem, that only Christ can solve. We must pray for that solution as long as we have breath.Gary

  72. remarutho says:

    Steve!

    I recall the glorious days when we fought side-by-side with Osama bin Laden against the Soviets in Afghanistan. Was this a moment of keen discernment and Christian action for the sake of our security?

    In Him,
    Maru

  73. poohpity says:

    Guns, hostility, war, anger, hatred and malice have always been the answer. It has worked up to this time through out history till where now we do not even have to be there we just fly drowns and kill. No longer do we have hand to hand combat but weapons that we do not even have to look someone in the face before we shoot them.

    How does it work even in our own homes when we have someone who is so angry that their words are the bullets yet because we make excuses for them and allow them to continue, that is seen as right so it never changes because not doing anything to stop it supports the anger and it goes on and on. Rather than supporting the person who is the recipient of the anger we support the source. We tell them you have every right to be angry so just keep on doing it while the victim sits by with a crushed spirit and is told to look the other way. So what are the implications in this circumstance?

  74. SFDBWV says:

    Maru, At the end of WWII in 1945 the Soviets were in Afghanistan, the world powers at the time were about the task of trying to force them out of their neighbors borders. They reentered Afghanistan again during a time of America’s show of weakness on the world scene. We remained in a state of cold war with the Soviet Union until Ronald Reagan and his no nonsense approach to dealing with Americas enemies succeeded in wining the cold war. We were allied with the Afghan people in an attempt to keep Soviet aggression at bay.

    That subject has absolutely nothing to do with Israel.

    When Osama bin Laden and his murderers attacked New York City and Washington DC and my neighbors and fellow countrymen bravely fought back against their hijackers and all died in a field in Pennsylvania; it was an act of war and an attack against us all.

    What was bin Laden’s motive? I can answer that…Zionists and their friends.

    I am not going to change my mind, so if it is just a matter of keeping this argument going, I will stop it right here. However if you or any one have a real question I may be able to answer I will do my best to do so.

    Steve

  75. poohpity says:

    What constitutes are “REAL” question to you? Just because another person presents their case to the topic does not mean we are trying to change your mind normally some are seeking to clarify an others stance. Is it right to support someone in a sin or wrong doing? According to what you have said no matter what Israel does we should support her even while God does not condone the measures, politics and actions that she takes for self preservation and defense. Is that what you are saying?

    I often wonder when we seek freedom or protection for another are we actually imposing what we call a freedom while negating another persons rights or freedoms?

  76. poohpity says:

    I asked a question in the paragraph about anger in a home and whether we support or look the other way and it was not answered was that not a real question? I am not saying this in any way other than just asking when do we support or hold someone accountable? Please do not take offense or get angry with me because it was not presented in a way to evoke any thing but discussion.

  77. Mart De Haan says:

    I’ll try to post on a new subject by tomorrow :-)… Sorry Poohpity, I think I was typing as you posted your question. I have no problem with ongoing discussion for rest of today…

  78. remarutho says:

    Steve!

    Thanks for clarifying the difference between the USA seeking security in Afghanistan and seeking security in Israel! The USA fought with bin Laden when it was appropriate — and against him when it was appropriate. Apparently his vision of world hegemony for Islamist force was okay — and then not okay.

    I am not sure any government — or a free-lance world player such as Al Qaida — can function as a force for good in the world. History bears this out.

    Yours in Christ,
    Maru

  79. marma says:

    I have been following this thread intently, and it has given me much food for thought.

    I think it really helps to delve deeply into issues like this. Critical thinking is an important skill, and being Bereans and “searching the scripture” and gaining a real in-depth understanding (what does Scripture really have to say, am I giving it a close reading, in context, and listening to the Holy Spirit and other godly people through whom the Holy Spirit speaks?)

    I’d rather see us do it hear in a forum that is open to deep discussion, then not to discuss it at all. It gets a little tense sometimes, but I pray that God will use it to our good.

    Thanks, Mart, for continuing what is an important discussion. Thanks to the posters, as well.

  80. remarutho says:

    Hello Poohpity!

    I hear you on the issue of anger! We do read anger as strength and peacemaking as weakness in the world.

    Jesus’ herald, John Baptist, preached Isaiah: “Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be made low, and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways made smooth; and all flesh shall see the salvation of God” (Luke 3:4-6) and (Isaiah 40:3-5) I believe he was saying that what appears to be mighty will be brought down and what seems to be lowly will be exalted.

    In our homes and in the field of power struggles among nations, we have come to exalt violence and aggression. Jesus was angry at the Pharisees in the synagogue on the Sabbath. They watched carefully as he healed a man with a withered hand. He asked those religious folk, “Is it lawful to do good or to do harm on the Sabbath, to save life or to kill?” (Mark 3:1-6) Even though he was angry, he both healed the man on the Sabbath — and later offered no resistance to the mob that came to get him at Gethsemane. (Mark 14)

    Only Jesus’ anger, it seems to me, is truly righteous. I am not saying you and I should not get angry. But, I do not think we are called by Christ to act in anger. We are not equipped to discern the outcome, the way he is. Blessings, Maru

  81. florida7sun says:

    The Lord loves us and knows the spans of our lives. He has a plan for each of us to fulfill and has given us His Word. Each day is precious, as grains of sand fall in an hour glass. On my calendar is this verse: “He that is slow to anger is better than the mighty; and he that ruleth his spirit than he that taketh a city.”

    Reflecting on Proverbs 16:32, this quote by Albert Schweitzer, recipient of the 1952 Nobel Prize Winner, is meaningful to me: “Day by day we should weigh what we have granted to the spirit of the world against what we have denied to the spirit of Jesus, in thought and especially in deed.”

    The Lord is in control. At any moment He may call us home. I am grateful for His peace. – John 14:27

  82. marma says:

    Sorry for the typos. I clearly haven’t posted for a while!

  83. gerpie says:

    I was just wondering about the people who are totally against armies and wars – what would you do instead – like after 9-11? Would you let them know that we forgive you – and if you would like to do that all over our country until there are none of us left – we will still forgive you?

    Though actually without armies and wars – we wouldn’t even be this country at this time.

  84. davids says:

    In all this, the issue of Jew versus Islam continues to underlie the discussion. I wonder what people would think if Israel were set against Christians.

    In the 1920’s, Palestine was around 10% Christian, and Lebanon 85%.

    Even today, Christians make up 4% of West Bank Arabs and 10% of the oppressed minority of Arabs living in Israel. They make up 40% of Lebanese, and 4-6% of Jordanians and Egyptians.

    Would we be so accepting of violence and prejudice if it were directed against our brothers and sisters in Christ?

  85. bubbles says:

    This is off topic. However, this entire mess began with Abraham.

    I am observing Abraham’s choices long ago.

    Surely he was not able to understand the quagmire he began when he chose to run ahead of God and have Hagar mother a child. Their choice showed lack of patience, maybe even a lack of faith.

    What a scary lesson we have here in Scripture. Some often think they are “helping” God along. They may think choices/decisons are theirs alone–but, look how Abraham showed how “personal” decisions can hurt others.

    But, look at how this one choice has reverberated down through history and how this mess continues to cause so much pain, sorrow, lack of peace and death to so many.
    Because of Abraham/Sarah’s wrong choice was not God’s will, look at the problems that ensued. His choice effected the entire world.

  86. remarutho says:

    Hello Gerpie —

    I will agree with you that without armies and wars we would not be the country we are today!

    Jerusalem is weary of war. Both Jews and Arabs are weary. At five a.m. the mullahs begin the first call to prayer. Often, you can hear mortar fire in the background at the same time.

    Let me ask you, are you weary of war? We are pouring a lot of blood and treasure into an effort to bring “security – stability – and peace” to a world that does not want any of them.

    Blessings,
    Maru

  87. gerpie says:

    Hello Maru –

    I am weary of war – even though I have been miles and miles from it – but that doesn’t make it disappear.

    I asked what would you do as an alternative? Would you do nothing other than to let them know that if they come and kill us all – we will forgive them? Is that what Israel should do – lay down her arms and let them come and kill all of the Jews?

    Unless you answer this – I don’t really see what it is that you want our government and Israel’s government to do. ??? It doesn’t matter how tired we are – they still come to kill. Should we lay down and die? (I am not saying that all wars are for this reason and this alone – and I do wonder about these other wars).

    Blessings,
    Gerpie

  88. bratimus says:

    In the discussion of wars, we should look to Matthew 24:4-14 and pay careful attention to verse 10

    “and then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.”

    if was a new beliver or a non-believer coming here looking for answers. I wouls have to say at times that the interaction in the comments could reflect verse 10.

    When it comes to living in a broken world, with war. it sometimes seems we have to pick the lesser of two evils. For now the lesser of the two evils in war seems to be the U.S.A. and it allies, for the religious freedoms that are still hanging in there.

  89. marma says:

    Bubbles- I think you are very much on topic. Aside from the defense of our country, which I have no comment about at this time, there are those who feel that the U.S. or Christians need to give God a helping hand in fulfilling prophesy when it comes to Israel.

    Is it really our Christian duty to execute judgment on Israel or to keep Israel together in order to make sure the end times play out the way God describes it in Scripture?

    The amazing thing to me is that God fulfills His Word, period. As someone else quoted, not by might, nor by power, but by His Spirit.

  90. remarutho says:

    Hello Gerpie –

    Mark Schneier, of the Jerusalem Post (a Jew), and Imam Shamsi Ali, a leader of a large mosque in New York, have begun to collaborate on a dialogue between Jews and Muslims. They hope to build a Muslim-Jewish alliance for peace in Israel/Palestine. The tag line on Schneier’s article of March 21st in the Post is: “Even when we do not share a common faith, we share a common fate, and our single destiny must strengthen our bonds of concern, compassion and caring for each other.”

    The Imam made a statement after a particularly brutal murder. He ssys, “Political differences never justify terrorism.” They have been working for five years to build a relationship of mutual trust and cooperation between Jews and Muslims. The two men have been strongly criticized and opposed for their peace-building effort, by Jews in both the US and Israel. Many Jews and Muslims do not believe they can be friends with one another.

    Several US leaders over the years have promoted dialogue and cooperation in Israel/Palestine among all three faiths. So far, the majority of both Muslims and Jews do not trust this process – nor do they trust one another. These two men are doing what must be done. The problem will not be solved by more fighting. The United States must be part of this process of reconciliation.

    Those of the Muslim faith are not the same as Islamist terrorists. Any nation will defend itself when attacked. I believe we must work at communicating and building trust and cooperation as a higher priority than making war.

    Blessings,
    Maru

  91. bratimus says:

    We should always remember the lesson of the Trojan horse.

  92. Mart De Haan says:

    Hey, thanks to all who waded into this discussion. Unfortunately some have concluded, as a result of what I’ve written, that I am not a friend of Israel, or that I believe the church has permanently replaced Israel in the program of God. That’s not the case, and I’m guessing that we’ll have occasion to revisit this conversation from a different angle down the road.

    For now am going to post something else in a bit.

    Will leave the comment option open on this one for anyone who wants to add their comments.

  93. gerpie says:

    Hello Maru –

    Thank you for your response. I would agree totally that peace is better than war. And that it is extremely good that there are people who are working towards peace.

    My question was assuming a nation is attacked (sorry I didn’t say that) – what would you do – and you also answered that in your last paragraph – “Any nation will defend itself when attacked.”

    Now I think I understand you more – that you hope and work towards peace – but when a country is attacked – it will defend itself. That was what I was wondering about – if you didn’t think a country should defend itself when attacked – and following that – help it’s allies when they are attacked.

    Thanks again for your response!

    Blessings,
    Gerpie

  94. remarutho says:

    Good Morning Gerpie!

    I am honored and flattered that you would take my simple remarks and add your own to them. A standing military does not have to take all-out, preemptive action on flimsy assumptions. I am fairly certain your understanding is in a growth mode — I also hope for such growth myself.

    Yours in Christ,
    Maru

  95. gerpie says:

    Good morning Maru!

    Thank you again for your response! I appreciate you spending the time to explain more what or how you think because I hear so much about these people who are so against war – but I didn’t really know ‘where they were at’ in their thinking. – It is very good for me to know that though you are against war and for peace – you would also accept your country defending itself. And I agree that there are many wars NOT to get involved in!!
    — You are right – I am in a growth mode – and soo appreciate when people explain so that I can see their viewpoint. (It seems my understanding is always growing – but the more it grows – the less it seems there is that is certain or true – other than that God and our Savior Jesus Christ CAN be TRUSTED!!)

    Blessings,
    Gerpie

  96. poohpity says:

    My eldest son and I for a two year period of time on and off had a conversation about joining the military and Christianity. My point was that their are many who are called to serve as their heart leads but his point was how can a person who calls them self a Christian kill and be in the military. The discussion lead to some very hard feelings which I finally had to say if this is causing so many problems in our relationship how can that be from the Lord? I understood his point but I also understand that there are times when military are needed because the reality is until the new heaven and new earth and our human logic and reasoning are involved there will be still be wars. These are the very areas that Mart asked us to pray and ask the Lord for wisdom in expressing our views while still holding to the respect of another and their opinion. Some pretty tough issues especially when we put our slants, prejudices and politics and mix that with our hearts to protect those who are oppressed and have been violated. Some answers are not so cut and dried are they?

  97. poohpity says:

    Another thing I noticed with the release of the Israeli prisoner was his physical condition which seem malnourished while the Palestine prisoners seemed to be in good health. Goes to show ya the difference in what people to do in the name of religion and hatred.

  98. gerpie says:

    Hi Poohpity –

    I agree with your first question – that some answers are not so cut and dried – matter of fact – as long as people are involved – I think nothing is cut and dried in this world. (That’s what I meant when I said that the understanding I’ve gained is that – in your words – nothing is ‘cut and dried’ – nothing is certain and true other than our God and our Savior).

    That must have been tough for you with your son – the disagreement causing problems in your relationship.

    Blessings to you,
    Gerpie

  99. poohpity says:

    I think the bottom line of the discussion with him was he just wanted to me really hear him and what he was saying and when we came to the point of my understanding what his side was and affirming that, we came to a point of mutual respect for our points of view. I think that is what happens with a lot of people they just want to be heard and understood while not being put down for thinking differently. When we start putting others down or name calling or even getting angry over our differences then we do not honor or worship God in any way. Everyone wants to be heard but to impose our thoughts on another as being correct it pushes us towards a stance of pride and the ego rears it’s ugly head above the mutual respect of another.

  100. poohpity says:

    With our children it also helps us to understand their maturity level and how we respond to them. It takes a mature adult to recognize that others thoughts are not to be taken as a personal offense if they do not agree with them.

  101. gerpie says:

    Your posts are very, very interesting – and it has given me insight into ‘where you are at’ – which I appreciate – especially as I have read your posts all along and haven’t quite known where you are coming from. It seems you do understand the whole picture of what people want and need – from experience. (I have dealt more with people who simply say what they think and they are right – so I haven’t had a lot of experience with being able to have mutual respect for our thoughts). I would agree with your whole assessment of the situation – with people.

    Thank you for taking the time to explain this all! I appreciate when people take the time – for me to gain insight!! :)

  102. MomB says:

    Maybe I am too simplistic, but as I grow in the Lord, one thing I am assured of, we are all sinners, in need of a Savior, and only the Grace and Mercy of God can rectify this situation. Also, when God created the human race that is what we were, the human race. Gradually, as he created a nation for Himself, namely the Jewish Nation, there is the distinction. You are either a Jew or a Gentile, not an American, Palestinian, or whatever. And so be it, that if God chose to create a nation to bring forth HIS GLORY, HIS SON, HIS REDEMPTION, and in the last days HIS ETERNAL BLESSINGS ON THEM, I will not only pray for them but bless them too for in them GOD BROUGHT FOR JESUS. In regards to all else, including me, I was in just as much need of a Savior than the rest of humanity. I will not condone evil, I will not condone injustice, but when I look at myself and hear the words of GOD echoing in the voice of JESUS saying if you even have hate in your heart you commit murder, how can anyone judge another except in the fact that we are all in need of Salvation, for the Jew first and then the Gentile.

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